April 18, 2008
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Socrates_Cafe: True Democracy?
Current topics at Socrates_Cafe
1. Ayn Rand vs Albert Camus, Who Would Win? Which philosopher(s) could take either or both of them?
This topic will be discussed at the Socrates_Cafe site2. Is capitalism immoral?
3. Would we survive without money? My post is here.
4. Is true democracy possible in our society?
5. Are there universal standards of moral behavior? I knew we covered this one already... My post is here.
Is true democracy possible in our society?
It depends upon what you would refer to as a true democracy. There’s no easy definition… the short and the quick of it would be ‘for the people by the people.’ By this loose definition, communism and socialism are both forms of democracy, as is the American form, representative democracy. To ask is a ‘true democracy’ possible, you must define the term…. a government ruled by the people in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them. By this definition, communism would be the closest thing to ‘true democracy.’
To put it bluntly then, a true democracy would be next to impossible from a national standpoint. Obviously, it’s been tried and it failed, badly, though to connect the former USSR to the ideal of communism is to connect tomatoes to raspberries. Sure they’re both technically fruit, but some people still insist that tomatoes are vegetables.
On a small scale, like the barter system I wrote about yesterday, a true democracy might be possible, but on a large, national scale, the complexity of satisfying that many people is simply not feasible. That’s not to say that democracy cannot be applied on a large scale, but that it must be adapted to fit the situation. No two democracies are going to be alike because no two groups of people are alike. Heck, most individuals can’t even agree on a thing, let alone a couple million. So no ‘true democracy’ is possible, though many variations of the theme exist and are feasible in certain situations.
(because my boss is on vacation and my schedule will be a little weird
over the weekend, here are the next three days)April 18th
This is the seventh day of the Cerealia.
The Hindu god Rama, seventh incarnation of the god Vishnu, and the goddess Sita are honored with the festival of Rama-Navami, commemorating his royal birth as the first born son of King Dasratha. As part of the celebrations, Hindus tell their favorite stories from his epic poem Ramayana.
April 19th
This is the eighth and last day of the Cerealia. This is similar to the Thesmophoria of the Greeks.
April 20th
The Palilia or Parilia honors the goddess Pales and commemorates the day Romulus built his city. Later the Pales were a pair of familial pastoral deities who guarded cattle and sheep. At twilight, shepherds purified their sheep. First the ground was sprinkled with water, then the sheepfold was decorated with leaves and branches with a large garland at the door. The sheep were run through the smoke made by burning pure sulfur while olives and pine and laurel crackled at the hearth. A basket of millet and millet cakes were offer to the goddess with a pail of milk. As these things were offered, the worshipper requested that she look after the health of the livestock and shepherd alike and that he be forgiven for an unknowing trespass against the nature spirits of the area. The shepherd asked that his flock be numerous and their udders always full, that the cheeses from the milk bring him money and the wool of his sheep be soft. With this request he promised that should his prayers be granted, there would be great cakes for Pales every year. This appeal said four times, facing the east, the shepherd washed his hands in dewy grass. After leaping over a bonfire three times, herdsmen would enjoy a feast in honor of the Pales. In Rome, the festival was celebrated with wine and merriment.
The Foundation of Rome is celebrated today as the Dea Roma or Natalis Urbis Romae. The walls of Rome were built during the festival of Pales. After the second century, Palilia was combined with Dea Roma and was celebrated as her birthday with processions and Circensian games, which continued till the 5th century.
On St. George’s Day, a Christian equivalent of the Parilia, Southern Slovenian peasants crowned their cows with wreaths of flowers. Later in the evening, the wreaths were taken from the cows and fastened to the door of the cattle-stall, where they remain throughout the year till the next St. George’s Day. St. George’s Day is a continuation of an ancient fertility festival in England. He is a version of Bellerophon, slayer of the Chimera, and of Sigurd, the Norse dragon slayer. The Asatru honor Sigurd and their homeland.
The seventh day of Payni is a Feast of Wadjet.
Comments (8)
i was never good at government so i will just take your word on it. i figured i must be in a democracy because i feel i am free but it scares me when i hear about the government taking over land because of immenent domain and that type of thing. i don’t think they should have the power to do something like that. but i guess it is in a democracy as well since they do do that.
i agree with you. i feel like a “true democracy” would never exist, simply because there are so many opposing forces that would have to be dealt with. those in power would not want to give up that power and those who are powerless would not want to continue in such a state.
Smaller communities governed by interested, invested people sounds more and more ideal all the time. As for feasibility, you got me.
I could not disagree more with you if I wanted to. Communism has absolutely nothing to do with giving individuals power over their own lives.
Socialism actually is an economic system in which wealth is equally distributed through the society. For that to be implemented, it requires a government which has the authority to dictate and oversee that the goods are distributed evenly and fairly. Communism also puts the government in charge of the society’s economy, in order to make sure that the wealth is distributed evenly. Since they have control of the money as well, this essentially gives the governing authority supreme power over the society.
@Amandasbiggestfan - You are only thinking of how communism and socialism have been applied, not the ideal which is that the people are the government. Because of the size of the USSR, there had to be a government to keep things organized on a large scale. However, if you read Marx’ work, he idealizes the primative village organization, which would have been organized like a commune, everyone pulling together for the common good. Socialism is also a form of democracy, but it is “supposed to be” a government controlled by parties, specifically parties of workers. Both are forms of democracy which have been much maligned and abused by those who attempted to utilize them. Some say that Marx’ idea was based too much on idealization and that the primitive commune-type village never existed. It remains an impossible dream to apply the ideal of communism or socialism to any massive nation, though many failed attemps have been made on both a national and local level (think hippies). These systems, like all democracy, only work so long as the people remain interested in maintaining the commune. As soon as someone becomes lazy or greedy, the system falls apart. Because there is no way to keep anyone from becoming lazy or greedy, there will never be a way to apply anything close to a “true democracy.” There will always be someone who trues to use the system to his advantage rather than be satisfied with equality.
I’ve linked you
Marx’s concepts were based on the history he had available. The actual social dynamics of economic change were much more complex than he imagined. W.W. Rostow’s book The Stages of Economic Growth is a good primer of a more modern analysis of economic change. It’s well and clearly written and mercifully short
Communal living is pretty interesting. Has anyone else here ever participated in a commune?
@tychecat - I’ll have to look up that book at work. We have a reasonably sized economics section…. I’ve been interested in and spoken to people who wished to start an intentional (Pagan) community, but nothing even panned out. The one group I know of that did get off the ground went to South America and so far as I know are still doing well. I’m just not inclined to seek out tropical climates. heh