Friday, 25 January 2008
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Socrates_Cafe: Forcing the Issues vs. the Freedom to be True to Oneself
Socrates_Cafe: Can democracy and/or freedom be forced on people who don't want it? What is the difference between an act of war, and an act of terrorism? What are the moral and practical implications of the religious aspects of the current U.S. political campaigns?
I don't feel anything can be forced on people who don't want it. You can try to make people obedient to your will, but in the end, it is their choice to agree with you or not. They are also at liberty to change their minds once you turn your back. They are Free to choose, they have a right to choose, not to espouse democracy.
Can democracy be forced on people? It would be better to ask if our "brand" of democracy can be forced on people. We don't practice a true democracy; no one does. True democracy is closer to socialism than our government is willing to attempt, and we all know how our government feels about socialism (or is it just the republicans who get their panties in a bunch over the concept?). If our military actions over the last hundred years prove nothing else, it is that people may adopt our form of democracy under duress, but it is only a surface change. The same people are often still in charge, and even when they are not, the same ideology is still in play. Republican democracy degenerates too easily into cronyism and dirty politics, just as it has here. So I guess in that way we have an excellent track record in spreading our special kind of democracy.
The same is true of forcing "freedom" on people. Isn't that an oxymoron? If you force someone to be free, aren't you enslaving them with your idea of what their freedom should entail? The people who we attempt to "free" may already consider themselves free; in which case, our interference is a burden. Mostly what we force on them are a different set of choices. Is that synonymous with freedom? Some would say yes; others would say it depends upon the choices. By forcing our idea of freedom on others, we assume that their way of life is flawed. We want them to exchange their ways for ours and assume that they will be grateful. That is seldom the case. In this way, forcing people to be "free," forcing them to adopt your ways over their own, is an act of terrorism. An act of war is a disagreement that can be arbitrated if the warring parties will get off their high horses and make peace. An act of terrorism has no room for arbitration. It is one group forcing another group to be something else.
People are individuals. Some will embrace their freedoms; some will not. Some will choose to interpret their freedoms in a way that is onerous to those who share the same freedoms. Look at the freedom of religion in our country. Many, many people (Christians) seem to think freedom of religion applies to their own religion or sometimes only their sect and no one else's. If you practice a minority religion, then best of luck because freedom of religion does not apply to you! I am being facetious here, but you get the idea. Provided those who practice minority religions do not make themselves known to the majority, they (the majority) are willing to live and let live, but if you make any attempt at expressing your own beliefs in a public way, don't expect to be welcome with open arms. Only Christians are allowed to be public with their religion. If anyone else expresses their beliefs, the Christians become offended by their very existence. They become paranoid that the other faiths are trying to convert them or their children.... their fear is practically xenophobic.
In our country there is a separation of Church and State. However, every person (supposedly) has a right to choose their religion and express it in public, as per freedom of speech. What I find completely contemptible are candidates who express their religion only as a way to appear moral or righteous. More often than not, they are paragons of neither concept. The more a candidate declares "his" religious fervor, the less I believe "him." It's a case of "methinks he doth protest too much." And again, there's that separation of Church and State thing. I have no problem with a religious candidate, but they shouldn't drag their religion into the political arena. They shouldn't make political choices based on their religion. If elected to office, the president (or other representative) has a responsibility to All the citizens of the country, not just the ones who share "his" religion.
A politician who constantly drags his or her deity into the political arena is seldom as religious as they'd like us to believe. Furthermore, a candidate who later proves to espouse none of the qualities his or her deity supports is essentially dragging their God through the mud by association. I do not trust religious candidates because by the very nature of the position they are attempting to gain, they are supposed to be impartial representatives and protectors of our rights. I candidate or politician who publicly calls upon God in his or her campaign or quotes from their holy book is essentially saying their their god-concept is more relevent to their position than my god-concept. I politician who cannot keep his religion private, or at least not cite It as a reason for "his" actions, is not fit for office. A politician by the very nature of "his" job must strive to be aware of all of the needs of "his" people.
January 25th
Old Disting is the feast of the Disir, the Norse guardian goddesses. A major festival was held to honor all the Aesir at the temple in Uppsala, Sweden.
“If it should thunder on St.Paul's Day, great winds follow.” According to folk tradition, a nice day today meant nice weather all year. Snow or rain brought a bad year for crops. Clouds or mists meant a bad year for animals, and thunder was a forerunner of windy days.
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Comments (18)
Frankly I'm not nearly as worried about the candidate who exaggerates his religious fervor as I am about the one who is serious about it.
Should people be free and countries democratic?
Anyway; long and boring details, but I loved the idea of "get whatever you want, wear whatever you want, I don't care, as long as it's navy/marine/black". Mwhaha, my sister-in-law kept telling me I was the farthest thing from a typical bride- her best friend is getting married and wants them to buy all the same dress, do their hair the same way, same manicures, shoes, jewelry, and...the dresses are over $200!!
Insane. It's much more fun to be laid back and just let things flow....
“And again, there's that separation of Church and State thing. I have no problem with a religious candidate, but they shouldn't drag their religion into the political arena. They shouldn't make political choices based on their religion. If elected to office, the president (or other representative) has a responsibility to All the citizens of the country, not just the ones who share "his" religion.”
Jefferson's point was that not one church was supposed to have reign and they were, at the time, being religiously tolerant even with minority religions. The position was that the church (whichever denomination that they were in) was always supposed to be in the state.
The state shouldn’t have any control over any religion, but every religion should have representation inside the government. That is what Democracy is all about!
To say that religion is to be out of government is to say that religions are no longer free, which would mean that government has control over religion. Religions “have” to be in government in order for there to be freedom of religion!
I’ve come to realize that there is a difference between the words “of” and “between.” We commonly say “separation of church and state” when, in fact, the actual words were “separation between church and state.” The main point I’m looking at here is that Amendment I was established with the goal of keeping government out of religion NOT of keeping government and religion wholly separate. If I am on track, then that would mean that each time church and state are addressed as being completely separate in our country, would be incorrect.
Please view my post The State Does Not Govern the Church to view and use the links offering access to the original documents.
@Socrates_Cafe - Obviously, I think everyone should be free, but should everyone be Democratic? That's a personal choice, I think. I know it is not a form of government, but how free are soldiers in a military unit? They have the freedom to choose to defend their country, but in making the choice they agree to give up a certain measure of their freedom, accepting an austere way of life and the loss of personal choice as part of the choice. By its very nature, an army cannot afford to be democratic. The soldiers must be obedient to the chain of command in a combat situation. They don't have time to vote on their course of action. Systems of government are created in part by circumstances and in part by the will of a population. A population, like soldiers, is free to make choices, but in making a choice, they give up a certain measure of freedom by the very nature of the choice they make. Just because we like democracy, doesn't mean everyone does. You can't say someone is free and allow them to make a choice and then revoke it because the choice they make runs contrary to what we think they should want. Some people are made uncomfortable by too many choices.
@thereluctantsinger - I chose Christians as an example because Christians in all their myriad variations are the dominant and dominating religion in America. No other religion encourages its members to go out there and sell, sell, sell so much as Christianity does. I know that Islam has the same attitude, Buddhism not so much. Any religion can influence politics, but in America, we're not dealing with other religions influencing politics. We're dealing with Christians influencing politics only. Honestly, if other religions were on equal footing in the political arena, there'd be no reason to single out the Christians. I wasn't bashing them. I just don't have any other examples of overly religious political representatives in American government. Do you?
@iamlovedbygod -
"The state shouldn’t have any control over any religion, but every religion should have representation inside the government. That is what Democracy is all about!"
But that is exactly my point. Not every religion has representation inside the government, especially when you consider how long it took the government to accept Pagan religions. Look at how many years it took Pagan soldiers killed in war to have a tombstone depicting their religion. Or how much religious discrimination goes on within the army. If the government cannot ensure equality for a group of people who stand ready to put their lives on the line in defense of it, then how are we to trust them to protect the rights of the average citizen? A candidate who habitually and exclusively expresses his/her own religious beliefs as a condition of their office is not faithfully representing all the people in our nation. One of the fears of many Pagans, and one that has been bourne out in recent news, is that our rights are being infringed upon by Christian biased representatives at local, state, and national levels.
"To say that religion is to be out of government is to say that religions are no longer free, which would mean that government has control over religion. Religions “have” to be in government in order for there to be freedom of religion!'
I am not saying that candidates must abandon their religion upon being elected, but that a person's religious affiliations should not equate to an agenda. I would not support a candidate who used his/her position as a means to suppress the opposite sex, a different race, or further his/her own business plans. And I certainly do not support politicians who use their position to force a religion on people. Political office is not an opportunity to glorify the group you identify with most; it is a position of responsibility where you may have to sacrifice your sense of self for the greater good. No one has the right (in this country) to tell another person what to believe; in the same sense, no one has the right to make laws which favor one group over another.
I think you are wrong in your assumption that the government should be kept out of religion, but that religion should not be kept out of government. A person elected to office accepts the larger role of representing all of his/her country-"men." A candidate who is always God this and God that, and quotes the Bible, is not representing me or anyone else who is not Christian. I don't care if a candidate is Christian, providing s/he really is (which is often debatable among these actors we call politicians), but I do care if their actions, words, or policies impact upon my religious freedoms.
I would not be opposed to a religious assembly as part of the government, even as another branch of the government, which would safeguard religious freedoms and further complicate the ratification process of new laws. Honestly I would welcome it. Perhaps it would even prevent abuses of religious freedoms already existent in our government branches. At the very least, it would encourage interfaith and understanding. You'd like all religions to have representation in the government? So would I, but not in representatives who are supposed to be representing everyone, not just their own personal interests.
If elected to office, the president (or other representative) has a responsibility to All the citizens of the country, not just the ones who share "his" religion.
That is the best thing I think you said in regards to religion in government. No one will EVER keep religion out of government, but it is the job of our leaders to follow what the people want and NOT their own moral convictions.
Your beginning post about religion did sound very much like Christian bashing which will overall tend to force people to think a bit less of what you say...and I am not Christian, so I don't take offense on a personal level.
I do disagree that you think people cannot have something forced upon them. It happens everyday in a myriad of ways across the world. I wouldn't want to have someone murder me, but it happens. I wouldn't want to be forced into prision in a foregin country for committing a menial crime by our standards, but a great offense to theirs, however, I could be forced into prision. Think Shawshank Redemption.
True, "a person elected to office accepts the larger role of representing all of his/her country" and a person's true religion, or their true way of life, will definitely impact the decisions made in that person's life. I agree with you that people should not always be "God this and God that, and quotes the Bible" as that is not representing people that are not a part of the ludicrous religion called Christianity. Christianity has become a fool's religion.
The ironic thing is that Christianity (at the base... at it's roots) looks nothing at all like what it has become today. It is supposed to be all about Love which means patient, kind, not envying, not boasting, not proud, not rude, not self-seeking, not easily angered, keeps not record of wrongs, delights in the truth, always protects, trusts, hopes and perseveres ... Love according to the roots of Christianity is willing to be wronged and willing to be cheated. Love, according to the roots of Christianity, is strong and serves others above self and never fails. Against that type of Love, there is nothing.
All of that comes out of Christianity's historical documents. And guess what the kicker is... if these fools who claim Christianity lived Love, instead of the ridiculous hypocrisy, then YOU and I and EVERYONE would be represented by that person. That is the beauty of a life lived by the rules of the religion of Love.
"essentially we agree on the idea of equality, just not on how that equality w/could be applied." I honestly think that we're both on the same track. After reading additional information on my perspective, would you agree?
@Zeal4living - As I stated in my reply to iamlovedbygod, a religious assembly, kind of a United Religions instead of a United Nations, as part of the political system might not be a bad thing. At the very least, it would make religious groups aware of policies before they were made into laws and give them the opportunity to voice their concerns in a public way. Making an official assembly would give them a collective voice in politics to ensure that the goverment could not pass law infringing upon the religious rights of any group.
I have to admit that I am an idealist in thinking that such an assembly would be any different from any other political group in playing its headgames, but I think a group assembled to police the rights of religions in politics is not without its merits. If nothing else, giving all religions representation in an official forum would encourage people to see others of a different faith as equals. I think the idea of a group dedicated to safeguarding religious freedoms and equality would still be in keeping with the separation of Church and State because such an assembly would not have any power to dictate policy, only review it and raise issues before they became "issues."
Maybe part of the problem in our government today is that outside of lobbyists, religions have no official representation in government. And in their "unofficial" status, they cause more harm from the shadows than they could if more light was shed on their currently verboten political actions.
@harmony0stars - We need more idealists. I have also argued for the reality that state and religion can not be separated. Your suggestion for a United Religions Assembly is interesting - especially if it forces religions to discuss things rather than isolate themselves from other religions. Religions is much like apartheid was in my own country. The religions urge their members to be superior to other religions or not to mix with them. In stead of racism that is religion-ism. The core of the problem lies in a lack of dialog and communication across religious boundaries. How much influence will you give such a United Religions Assembly in state matters?
@Zeal4living - I would only give them ability to influence religiously biased policy. At the very least a law up for approval would have to be submitted to them for public debate before it could be voted upon by their government. I'm not saying they would have the power to veto a law, but if there were aspects of the law that could be seen to infringe upon religious rights, they would be able to argue their case before congress (or whatever the governing body of their nation is).
On the other hand, if this United Religious Assembly were made an international group, I doubt they would have much power unless the nations of the world decided to legitimize and accept the existence of other religions, which for some nations is not likely. So I think this would have to be a nation by nation organization, though I think that if such an organization existed long enough and harmoniously and gained the trust and respect of other nations, eventually they could appoint a representative to the UN to advise them on policy that might have religious impact in other countries. Just a thought....
@harmony0stars - Have you heard of the Baha'i faith who focus on religious unity? If you did, what do you think of them and do you think we can learn anything from them in the context of this conversation?